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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Welcome!
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: My name is Zach Forrest, and I'm with PushPress, and I'm really excited for this one. The truth is.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Most gym owners think they have a lead problem when they actually don't, they have a retention problem, so today we're going to address that, we're gonna look to fix that. I've got Dave Kovar with me, and today, he is breaking down the exact beliefs and systems that separate high-retention gyms from everyone else. You're going to walk away with moves that you can make this week. It's very important to us
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: That you guys walk away with actionable insights and ways to actually move the needle starting next week.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: So if you don't know, if you don't know Dave.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: You're about to. He's built and operated martial arts schools for decades, right, Dave? Decades, at this point, correct?
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Dave Kovar: Yes, yes, 48 years, yeah.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: 48 years, and you have… is it… correct me if I'm wrong, is it a total of 8 locations just for you?
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Dave Kovar: Right, my company owns 8 locations, then we have another 10 licensed locations.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: holy cow, that's a… that's a very large network, and that's probably a lot to manage. I've made the assumption that
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: after that much experience, you have probably forgotten more about keeping members around than most people actually learn. So, like, you are the expert of experts, having been in the field that long.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Is there any other insider to your background that we should be aware of before we kick off?
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Dave Kovar: No, the fact that I've forgotten a lot is absolutely true, like most aspects of my life. No, I think, of course, you know, I've focused on, you know, martial arts has been my world the whole time, and there's so many correlations. If you run a gym to martial arts, there's so many carryovers, and…
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Dave Kovar: And I think you really nailed it. It's like, when I'm coaching gyms and schools, the first thing this new person always says, just tell me how to get new members. Just tell me, you know, once I get them, they stay forever.
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Dave Kovar: And… but no, they don't. And until people really understand how many they're losing, and once you understand that, it's like, the light bulb goes on, and not you shouldn't be focused on getting new members, for sure you could, but it's a lot easier, and it's a better lifestyle that you keep the members you have.
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Dave Kovar: than have to just be churning all the time. It's a very sustainable monitor once you can figure that out.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: 100%. So, the default in… I'm sure it's the same in martial arts, but I know for a fact in the fitness industry, it's very, very prevalent that the default move is to spend more money on marketing when growth stalls. But if you're enrolling people and losing people.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: at the same rate, you're just running a hamster wheel, right? Like, we… I think we were talking about that, Dave. That's the metaphor. It's like you're just on this treadmill that's not going anywhere, even though you feel like you're doing a lot of work.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: So, flat membership count is the tell. If you have the same number, you know, 6 months or a year ago that you do now, it just means every time you add a member, you're replacing one that you lost. So, Dave.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: In your experience working with… at this point, you've worked with hundreds of schools, I'm sure, right? What…
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: How common is it? That's the question. How common is it for you to,
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Come… to find an owner thinking they need more leads, and they're… they're convicted that it's a lead generation problem, when
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: they dig into it. When you dig into it, you actually find out, no, it's your retention, 100%. How often does that happen?
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Dave Kovar: It's almost every case, with almost every new client, that's what they want to do, and one of the things is that that's why all the coaching and consulting business is so much
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Dave Kovar: focus on new business, because that's what people find people interested. But what I think is amazing is that once someone actually does the math and figures out what their crit weight is, then all of a sudden…
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Oh my god.
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Dave Kovar: that goes on, you know? And Peter Drucker, I think he's attributed the quote, that which is measured improves, okay? And the first thing to improve your retention is just knowing what your current retention is.
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Dave Kovar: And, in the industry, like, you've got it here. So, I would say industry average in most good gyms is 5-7%, right? But I'll tell you what, our goal is 3%. And as a company, I've never… and what does that mean exactly? To break it down, if your quit rate is 3%, you have 100 members, and your quit is 3%, every month you're gonna lose 3 members, okay?
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Dave Kovar: Which means if you have a gym of 300 schools, 300 students, you have to have at least 9 a month just to break even. Just to break even, right? And so what happens is, is that…
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Dave Kovar: If you can simply work on getting your quit rate down, and that's, of course, what we're going to focus on, is that the lifestyle… there's a lot less stress, and I don't know about you, there's 3 types of motivation. People are motivated by one of three areas. One of them is desperation.
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Dave Kovar: Okay? And you ever been like, it's the third of the month, rent was due on the 1st, you don't have the rent yet, it's late on the 5th, you have a couple days to figure out how to raise the month… your rent, guess what happens? You figure it out. You're desperate. You do whatever you gotta do to make it happen. But the thing about desperation is that it tends to be temporary, right? It's not long-lived. The opposite of desperation is inspiration. Inspiration. And that is where you are like.
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Dave Kovar: man, you go to a seminar, you read a book, who knows, man, you're inspired, you know, and you're working extra hard. But the thing about inspiration is it tends to also be temporary. So the key to motivation is purpose, being really clear about why it is that you're in business, right? And that's going to help sustain you. And so, one of the things is that I would strongly encourage people to do is
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Dave Kovar: is to remember past successes. You know, stories of people that over… stories of your clients that, you know, lost a lot of weight, or overcame, you know, some challenge, or got their confidence back, you know, really have those top of mind. And the reason why that's important is that way, when you're talking about retention and keeping your members, it's not just… you don't want to be going, oh man, I can't have Zach quit, I need… I can't lose any more memory.
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Dave Kovar: so I try to talk about acquitting, it may… the conversation may go okay, but when I'm looking at you, Zach, and I'm thinking, you need this program, it is going to change your life. It has, and it will continue to have this. You know, it'll continue to impact you in a positive way.
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Dave Kovar: The words might be the same, but you're gonna feel it differently, because the human mind is easily influenced by anything spoken with conviction, and when you believe in your products, you know, it's just… it's easier to, to,
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Dave Kovar: And I… it's easier to sustain, but I guess the point was, is that when you're churning.
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Dave Kovar: all the time. People are losing, you know, they're quitting, you're trying to replace them with a new one. That… you kind of get in this desperate cycle that… that… and it's not as much fun, and when you're not having as much fun, people get it, they feel it. The gym has a completely different feel than when you, man, you're… you're committed to it, you know, you're not having to battle for every new member every time, you know, it's just a better lifestyle, and it draws a more…
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Dave Kovar: It's more sustainable, it draws a kind of a better clientele, if that makes sense.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: 100%, it makes total sense, and it's like, people… people thrive off the energy that you, as either the owner or the leader of the tribe, whatever energy you're putting out, that's obviously going to trickle down into the staff, into the team, and if you're running classes or instruction, it's definitely going to be felt. So it's almost like in…
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: I love that how you drew out, like, in my mind, you painted the picture of a spectrum. You had, like, you said desperation on one end, you had inspiration on the other, and in the middle ground, where the majority of sustainable progress is made, you have purpose. And if you're running your business from a
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Point or a stance of purpose
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: then retention is probably, gonna be under control. So you said industry average was 5-7% in this. Is this in industry average in martial arts, or is…
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Dave Kovar: Yes.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Okay, martial arts.
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Dave Kovar: That's martial arts, and by the way, that's good schools. Like, it's a lot higher with a lot of other people. That's the people… that's my best guess based on my network and people that I've interacted with.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: What do your schools run at?
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Dave Kovar: So, we've always tried to hit 3. Last year, we were, we've been as low as 3.5 as a company with 300… excuse me, with 3,000 members. Holy cow. We were at, like, 4.2. It's been… it's interesting, I don't want to make excuses. Post-COVID, we've had a… it's… people are a little less sticky. I've had some locations that are actually under 3%, and then a couple that are in the fives.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: So when you started tracking these, especially post-COVID, and you noticed those things, was there anything that jumped out that surprised you about quit rate at certain schools versus others?
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Dave Kovar: Well, it's interesting, it has to do with the schools, because, you know, it's kind of like we have a broad base to choose from, and what's interesting about our quit rate is that schools that have the best quit rate.
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Dave Kovar: The retention is the best. There's two primary things. The classes are friggin' rockin'. The instructors are interacting at a high level, they care about their students, that's number one. Number two is their systems are tight.
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Dave Kovar: And what I'm talking about, and I'm going to touch on that with our five mindsets in a bit here. The systems are… they're really good at the interaction with our clients. Really, which… and this is where, you know, AI is doing everything, it's so powerful.
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Dave Kovar: But we've got to be the… the human connection is the yin to the AI's yang, you know? It's like, we've got to double down. If we really want to stand out in this new age, we've got to make sure that we are… our human interaction is stronger than ever. Because automation does so much. But people can figure that out, and they know the difference between an automated text and a real one.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Absolutely, they know that, yeah. It's actually extremely apparent, and it takes a lot of effort to hide it, but people are getting really good at identifying the AI work. That makes a lot of sense. I do… so you keep talking about quick rate. I just… I just want to solidify the math a little bit more so that anybody listening or watching this
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: can find their quit rate, or if, there are different… there's different terminologies for this, right, Dave? So you have quit rate, you have churn, you have retention rate, all those mean the same thing, for the most part, right?
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Dave Kovar: Right.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: So, at a 7% quit rate, if you are averaging $112 a month per student
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Right? Your average member worth is about $1,000 in lifetime value. I want to contrast that with, if you take that same person, and you have the value go to $200 a month.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: but you have that quit rate at 3%, that lifetime value jumps $7,000. Like that, or it jumps $6,000 up to about $7,000. So, I mean, yes, if you look at the difference in numbers, like, oh, well, $112 a month to $200 a month, of course I'm gonna make that, but that's only
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: $85 to $90 a month. How is that going to…
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: add up to $6,000 over the course of a lifetime. It comes from the quit rate being reduced. So, this is why
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: That missed class, when people stop attending?
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: a follow-up call, or, like, a reach-out text, or an email, like, hey, where you been? It's no longer optional. Every member you save is worth
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Dave, would you say it's worth thousands of dollars for every member?
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Dave Kovar: You know what I would say? Like, this is so important that people really get the math of this, is that because every time you… it's a missed call, you know, or you don't… or someone doesn't enroll, we're not talking about that, really, but you're missing out on $7,000, right? So only call the people that you want to keep.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Mmm.
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Dave Kovar: That's… that's a joke. In other words, call everyone.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: I was thinking there for a second, I was like, who do I not want to keep right now?
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Dave Kovar: Exactly. It's a joke. So the deal is, yes, is it… and this is the part that's not sexy, right? It takes some work, but I'll tell you what, this is the meat and potatoes. This is the part that really makes a gym successful. It's not the… it's the off hours. We have 3 primary kind of modalities or time frames in our day that we look at, and one of them is… it's prep time, prime time, premium time.
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Dave Kovar: And prep time is all the time that you spend working on your business when you're not actually teaching a class or interacting with a client, right?
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Okay.
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Dave Kovar: That's the neglected part, and that's the time, you know, that most people don't really
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Dave Kovar: you know, they show up just in time to kind of open up, place clean, and oh yeah, I'll get to that. No, man, you have to make sure that you lock into your schedule on a regular basis, this time to be interacting with your clients, and making sure to call them when they're not showing up, and to reschedule those lessons, because if you can do that, then the bottom line is, is that you're going to more likely get a higher lifetime value, and more importantly, you're going to
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Dave Kovar: people are going to really see the impact of your program, and, and… Absolutely.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: I mean, that's the point of them being there, is to change some aspect of their life. Here's… I find this interesting. I was working with another business owner, and they gave me this line. I'm interested to hear what you think about it. They said, yeah, I don't tend to follow up with everyone when they stop coming in, because I don't want to bother them.
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Dave Kovar: I don'.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: I don't want to bother… I don't want to be pesky, and I'm like, well, what about sales? He's like, well, I don't… if they haven't signed up, I have no problem following up and seeing if… when the next time they want to come in and try and, like, get them to close, but I'm like, but you have a problem following up with your members because you feel like you're bothering them? And to me, I feel like that's a perspective shift that needs to happen.
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Dave Kovar: 100%. Yeah, the bottom line is this. Imagine, especially, you know, there's an assumption here. I remember one time years ago, I was, I was a gym, I was enrolled, it was a local, like, a powerlifter,
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Dave Kovar: Jim, and the guy that owned it, it's no longer in business, and you can't… you'll figure why after I tell this story. You show up, and nobody… the guy didn't greet you, he was… what he was doing, he was at the front counter counting his steroids, bottles of steroids he was trying to sell that day.
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Dave Kovar: That was… I'm not even exaggerating. He would look at it, and there's just music so loud you can't even see, you know, can you hear anything going on? And it's kind of not kind of mainstream music, if you know what I'm saying.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: I gotcha.
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Dave Kovar: So, it's close to my house, so I go, and then one day, out of the blue, this guy comes up to me, Dave, how you doing, man? Hey, how's your training going? I'm going, this is the… he hadn't even looked at me in 9 months. Well, guess what it was? My membership was up.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Oh!
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Dave Kovar: And it was so trans… it's so false, and so it was like, you know, it was the reminder. And so, I guess, you know, we have to make sure that that call, when you're calling because it's time for them to renew, okay, that's not going to go over well unless you've been interacting with them on a regular basis.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: It comes down to building trust.
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Dave Kovar: 100%. And now, they people appreciate it. Hey, where you been, man? I missed you. You know, when can you… you're not bugging them, they're gonna thank you later. They're gonna…
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Dave Kovar: Because you're going to get them… because remember, training doesn't go like this. It's jagged. There's good days and there's bad days. There's some days you want to go to the gym, there's some days you don't. And if my coach can catch me on a day when I don't feel like it and encourage me to get back in, boom, then that's gonna keep me on track.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: the trust is not built on the good days, the trust is built on the bad days. It's… it's… it's hand… it's…
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: It's when your members go through those valleys, they go through those lows with you as a coach, or with you as a business, that's what reinforces good retention, right? So, you were talking to me on our previous call about your buckets for high retention operating systems, and you use the word belief. So, what we have up on the slide right now.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: They're not tactics. I classify them, when you were talking about them, they're like, they're operating tenets, or operating beliefs.
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Dave Kovar: Yeah.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Define how your team, or how you want your staff to show up every single day, regardless of what's on the schedule, right?
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: I'm assuming we can take these things from martial arts, from yoga, from Pilates, or bar, or, you know, an F45 location, or even a CrossFit gym. If you had these 5 things in here, they're gonna be applicable, right, to any small business or boutique, you know, physical training center. So, can you… can you tell me real quick why you frame them as beliefs rather than
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Policies or rules.
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Dave Kovar: Well, because the bottom line, it's kind of a mindset, it's a way of looking at your business, right? And
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Dave Kovar: because I want my team, this is what I want us to believe, that we are, right? And how these came from, these five core beliefs came from, is about 15 years ago, I was sitting down with a bunch of my senior staff members, and we have… and everybody on the call here probably has a bunch of systems in place in your business that you're supposed to do.
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Dave Kovar: that you have so much stuff, you don't even get to it, right? There's all these systems in place, right? And so, I found out a bunch of my guys were focusing on less than important things. They were focused on minor issues, and they were forgetting some of the major issues. So, we got together and we brainstormed and said, okay, if I show up every day.
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Dave Kovar: to my academy, what should I be focused on? What are the things that I gotta remember to do every day that gets me 90% of the way there? And if I get this, then…
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: These are the buckets that you came up with, is that what you're saying? Exactly. That makes a… that gives me a better, perspective on why these… so if I'm showing up under… under Kovar, right, it's like, I'm walking in through the door, and these are the five things that I need to check off every single day to ensure that good stuff happens.
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Dave Kovar: It's almost like you have your cheat sheet. Oh, what am I doing today, right? You know, it's like… and it's gonna be the same stuff every day, but if you don't deviate from this, you can certainly add on, but not at… but these have got to be there. These are things you gotta do every day. And then whatever systems you have in place, great, but not at the risk of this. So the core belief, number one, we're the friendliest place in town. You know, I don't know if you read the book, Blink, by Malcolm Gladwell, it was a bestseller.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: That was a phenomenal book. I read it years ago, and I… you know what? I have it… I can see it on my bookshelf right there. I need to read it again. That's a great book.
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Dave Kovar: So, you know, the gist of the book, you know, one of the things was, is people size up a situation very… their gut feeling right away, and it's usually the one they stick with, right? So people can come into your place. Can you… can they come in and not have the best first impression and still enroll in your program? Of course they can. Of course they can.
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Dave Kovar: And can they have a great first experience and not enroll? Of course that can happen. The bottom line is, is that someone walking in, it's, man, it's intimidating going to a martial arts school or a gym for the first time, you know, you're not in very good shape, and you're worried about being in a class with a bunch of, you know, people that are in great shape. Walking in that door the first time, most of your clients didn't go, oh, oh, I'm gonna go enroll there. No, they've been thinking about it forever, and they finally got the courage to step through the door.
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Dave Kovar: Okay. And very quickly, they're gonna decide, I like this place, or I don't like this place. It makes me feel good or not. And when I'm talking we're the friendliest place in town, it's not just…
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Dave Kovar: the staff. Hopefully, it's permeated into the whole clientele, right? That, hey, when you meet someone you don't know, make sure to greet them, okay? Make them feel part of the family. Because I'll tell you what, if I can go there.
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Dave Kovar: In the first 5 minutes, man, 5 people said hello to me, and oh, you're gonna feel great, and, you know, you're gonna love this, and all of a sudden, guess what? I found my home. I found my home. And so that's the first mindset, is we're the friendliest place in town. Super important.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: How do you systemize that? What would you tell your staff to do day-to-day to ensure that
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Friendliest place in town was actionable.
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Dave Kovar: Yeah, so there's a couple things that we have in place. Number one is, and I'm not saying we always do this, this is the idea, is the 3-foot rule, okay? And that is someone's 3 feet walking the door, there's someone that's reaching out and greeting them, okay?
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Okay.
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Dave Kovar: Another thing we call it the 3x3 rule, and the 3x3 rule is, during every session, when someone's there, we want them to… we want to use their name, appropriate body contact, and look them in the eye, okay? So I walk up, and I go, hey, Zach, I gave you a knuckle bump. Good to see you, man. Somewhere during your training session, I walk up, Zach.
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Dave Kovar: Good job on that, right? So, 3 times during every time someone's at our business, that they're… that we're touching base with them. And here's what's important about this. You can have this massive, packed gym.
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Dave Kovar: And people are good with that, but they… but how you're going to sustain this massively packed gym is your clients need to know that you knew that they were there, and that's.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: 100%.
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Dave Kovar: That's where it comes into play.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Absolutely. Yeah, and that's… that's essentially what you're doing is you're systemizing that no matter what size class, everybody understands that their presence was valued during their time at the gym.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: And not only valued, but, but almost, like, wanted and desired. Like, it's… friendliness means, like, hey, it's not that I've acknowledged that you're here, it's that I'm happy you're here, and you being here has made my day better.
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Dave Kovar: You know, it's the two things that go into charisma, warmth and presence.
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Dave Kovar: Okay.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: President…
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Dave Kovar: That means you are giving someone your attention, and warmth is meaning that you're friendly, and that's how… why that person's charismatic, that's the science behind that, right?
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: I think, Dave, I think… I think nowadays they say Riz. I think that's what they say. I think it's called Riz. That's a joke. I think, like, it's new slang for, like, Gen Z, yeah. Don't worry about that. Alright, so, what about, core belief number two?
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Dave Kovar: So, it's so basic. We can't necessarily control how many people walk into our gym, but we can control how clean it is, right? And this is one of those things, especially, important, especially if you have, like, like, you know, if you have a lot of ladies in your facility, and a lot of kids, because they're the decision makers, right? And so our business, we teach
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Dave Kovar: probably 75% of our business is youth, right? So, moms make those decisions, and I'll never forget this. I had this mom came in to enroll her son at our pro… grandmother, excuse me, enrolled her son at our program, this would have been years back, and I'm in the lobby, and I have this nice conversation. She goes, yeah, we went to the school down the street, but they're not very good. And I happen to know who she was talking about is very good, is very good. I go, really? How come? She goes, oh, their bathrooms are dirty.
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Dave Kovar: She based her whole decision based on that. And I don't know about you, but you go to a really good restaurant, man, you love this restaurant, the food, you walk into the bathroom and it's dirty, you're thinking, I don't know if I'm gonna go back to this again, you know? So, it's such a basic thing. So, we're the cleanest place in town. Cleanliness breeds professionalism.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Correct.
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Dave Kovar: And so, along with claiming this, it's the look of the place, you know? It's, you know, is the layout. You can tell when someone's been very intentional about how their place is laid out. What's the… and of course, Jim's the odor, right? That's a big deal. Have you figured out a way to handle that? You know, so your olfactory, you know, you're not overloaded by, you know, by sweat and fungus when you first walk in, so to speak.
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Dave Kovar: And that's the first ones that we've got to do on a regular basis.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: What's the single… what do you think is the single…
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: single most, not sought after, but what most noticeable spot in a, you know, a martial arts studio, or school, or a gym that the gym owner needs to pay attention to? Like, what's the fastest way a gym owner can tighten up cleanliness standards?
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Dave Kovar: Yeah, I…
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Without adding a ton of staff time.
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Dave Kovar: And I would tell you that, and it depends, if you're a smaller gym, you might not have a locker room, et cetera, is where do people put their stuff when they show up?
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Dave Kovar: system.
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Dave Kovar: I know that's a real issue in a martial arts school. People are at the gym with their gloves and whatever it might be, you know, is there a place that people can put their stuff? And then secondly, is where your equipment… have you trained your clients to put stuff away when they're done, right? So, during, you know, because a lot… you know, you have class back-to-back classes.
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Dave Kovar: Stuff's gonna happen, right? But do people know to put stuff back in their place, etc. So that we can put on that.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: I like that. So, like, cubby locker or personal belongings, the area, make sure that there's a system for organizing that stuff when people bring it in, so it doesn't just look like, you know, like, exploded personal belongings everywhere when someone walks in. And then, also the equipment. It goes back, organized equipment. Yeah, if that stuff looks organized, absolutely, I would immediately have more of a, perspective of professionalism if I was
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: First time in that gym.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Very cool. So, core belief number 3 is this one resonates with me on a very high level. Never teach a good class when you can teach a great one. I want to hear what you mean by this.
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Dave Kovar: So, the way I say it is, we only teach grade classes, never just good classes, okay? The same thing, but here's the intention there. How many times have I walked off the floor after teaching a class thinking to myself, hey, you know, I'm a pretty good instructor? And how many times have I walked off the floor thinking, what the heck happened today, man? It's right here.
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Dave Kovar: Your intention, when you step out on the floor to interact, is to be great, to do the best you can. You're not always going to be. Sometimes they're just going to be better than others, you know, you're just… sometimes you're in that flow state, otherwise it's not as natural, right? Maybe you didn't get good night's sleep, or you're not feeling real well, or you have some issue you're dealing with that affects you a little bit. But here's what we have to remember, is that, I don't know what the exact number, but I would… I would guess that somewhere…
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Dave Kovar: At any given moment, between 10 and 20% of our student body is losing interest.
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Dave Kovar: In the training, and they're one mediocre class away from not coming back.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: I want you to…
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Dave Kovar: grace.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: I mean, but that's kind of scary, 10-20%, so that means, like, you know, one to two people in a 10-person class are one or two mediocre class away from not coming back. So what, in your mind, and now I know this is probably going to be more specific to martial arts, or maybe it's not, maybe I'm making that assumption incorrectly, what in your mind separates a mediocre class from a great class?
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Dave Kovar: Well, you know, it's like I said, you're… it's… I think it's a feeling. It has to do being…
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Dave Kovar: present, focused, and in the right sense of a state of mind. You know, the name of our schools is Satori Academy. Satori is a Japanese word that means… roughly translated, means a moment of a deep understanding, or a moment of enlightenment. For us, it means in the moment at your best.
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Dave Kovar: flow state. So it's, you know, you know when you've had… you know, after a good class, you know when it was a good class, okay? And so, what… I don't know if it's 10-20% of your student body. It's just an assumption on my part, okay? Okay. That when I'm out there, I'm looking around, I go, there's 15 people in class. You know what? Two or three people didn't want to come here today.
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Dave Kovar: They didn't want to show up, but they showed up.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Probably a safe assumption to make, though, and if you have that assumption in your head, it probably keeps you on toes and more likely to run a great class.
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Dave Kovar: 100%, that's the whole point. So what can I do to get them to come back to class one more time? Just one more time, that's it, right? And then one more time, and then one more time. So, and sometimes, and by the way, one of the most important things that I think someone can do, and this is a keeper, this, if you can remember to do this one thing, it'll change your business, and that is, is get in the habit of asking your clients when they're coming back to class again.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Yep.
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Dave Kovar: Okay? It seems so simple, but let's say, Zach, you're losing interest, and, you know, you're supposed to be there on Saturday class, and I say, hey, you gonna be here Saturday? And you say, yeah. Saturday rolls around, you're a little sore, you don't really feel like doing it. Now, because you committed to me to doing it, does that guarantee 100% you're gonna be there? Of course not, but you're more likely to show up.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Yep, yeah, you mean that.
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Dave Kovar: Everyone.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Commitment. Yeah.
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Dave Kovar: Oh, I didn't really want to do it, but I told Dave I would show up. So you show up, and that is your turnaround class.
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Dave Kovar: You just get your mo… and guess what? You're back in the trenches. So it's kind of like what we talked about. So, the intention, every time you step out on the floor to interact, you are present-focused, and you're doing the best friggin' job you possibly can. And if that's our mindset, you know, then we stand a lot better chance of hitting that 3% quit rate. By the way.
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Dave Kovar: one of the things that I think is a test, if you add up all the classes that you have over the course of the week, so, like, at one of our schools, we might have 35 classes in the course of a week. And then, regardless of who's running the class, if you were to give it a grade point average, this class was an A, this was an A+, this was a C-,
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Dave Kovar: And then you're gonna average it. If you ever have less than a B-plus average, then that's a real problem.
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Dave Kovar: You're gonna have a hard time with retention, you know?
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: So that's interesting, because we have a… I mean, I guess I could turn it into a letter grade, but we have an eval system for our coaches.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: And it goes 1 through 5, and 5 would be the equivalent of, like, an A+, and it's… it's very hard to get a 5. But anything below a 3.9, so 3.9 or lower, is like, okay, this is… this is… this is not good, this is not acceptable. And we do that same thing. We look at the past 3 to 4 evals, like, evaluations, and it's like, cool, what are you averaging?
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: And if it's not above, like, a 4.5, yeah, that highlights a major problem. So that's great that you did that. Do you have a formal system for doing that? I'm just curious. We're not going to go into it now, but I'm curious.
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Dave Kovar: Oh, no, we don't.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: It's something that… but it's just known at your spot.
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Dave Kovar: It's what we talk about all the time, right? And then we try to give… and, you know, feedback is the breakfast of champions, right? So trying to give, you know, to audit… I have teams audit each other, instructors audit each other and give feedback on what they did well and what they can improve upon on a regular basis as well.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Speaking of feedback, that's core belief number four, but feedback directly to your members that they wouldn't be able to give themselves, which, when you said this, I was like, man, this is so obvious, but I don't think anybody's ever been extremely explicit with this… with this mechanism right here. Go into this, I love this.
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Dave Kovar: Yeah, well, you know, the bottom line is this, is that feedback is, they say, the breakfast of champions, and most people
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Dave Kovar: They're craving feedback, right? And there's two different ways. There's intrinsic, you know, feedback is, I'm stronger, I can, you know, I can deadlift more than I could 3 weeks ago. I'm getting stronger, right? And then it's extrinsically, always hard to pronounce that, where someone is actually saying, whoa, man, and they're noticing improvement, okay? And so, so one of the things that we do is we have, we follow a system called Praise, Correct, Pray.
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Dave Kovar: Or, you know, and the idea is we are trying on a regular basis, to point out a 2 to 1 ratio of things that they're doing well and how they're improving to something they could do better, okay? And so, just give… I'll tell you what.
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Dave Kovar: you don't know if you're improving. This is a true story. I have a buddy of mine, he's like my wife's friend's husband, and he's a casual friend, you know, when we go out to dinner, you know, we're fine. We probably wouldn't do too much together if it was just the two of us, but we get along great, right? And a few months back, I go, hey, Chris, man, you been working out?
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Dave Kovar: Oh, did you notice? Yes! I mean, he was like… I could tell, man, he had a little tricep popping out, I hadn't seen that before.
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Dave Kovar: And, like, him just, he goes, you made my day, Dave. You really, you know, you could just tell. It was like, it was a reminder. Note to self.
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Dave Kovar: do a better job of looking for things that people are doing well and pointing it out, right? And then, what happens also, when you give feedback about things that people are doing well, what happens is, when you… when it's time to, like, maybe correct them on something, they take it better. It's Stephen Covey that calls it, you build up the emotional bank account, right? You know, so you… it works great with your team, too. If you have employees
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Dave Kovar: and you're always nitpicking on them, pretty soon their guard is up all the time. But if you're catching them doing things right on a regular basis, and then when things aren't as good, it's easier to… easier pill to swallow.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: So, how… I go back to what you said, because I didn't hear the middle word, praise, something praise.
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Dave Kovar: Praise correct.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Correct. Okay, cool. Is that a… is that a system that you have in place to ensure that, even in a large group setting, that every single person gets that per class? Now, is there a frequency per class, or is it just…
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Dave Kovar: Usually tied in with the 3x3 rule, but not necessarily… sometimes you might not always get the full price break praise three times during class, but the whole intention is we never make just a pure correction.
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Dave Kovar: Okay? Unless… obviously.
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Dave Kovar: at first, it's a specific system when we train our instructors, okay? It's praise, correct praise. It's really a 2 to 1 ratio. By the way, Pat Riley had a 5 to 1 ratio. Praises to corrections with his professional athletes, right? But so, and I think this is really important, with new coaches coming on, we think coaching is about making corrections, which is great. However, the first thing we do with new coaches when we have them come on is we have them when we
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Dave Kovar: they're helping, we have them only look for things that people are doing right. Because what that does, that trains their eye, so pretty soon they instinctively notice, and they comment.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Actually, that's super power. You know what?
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: I'm gonna steal that for level 2s. When I'm running Level 2s, you're right, we do…
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: wow, that's actually really… I've never… why have I never thought of that? Dave, you just gave me an extreme light bulb moment. Level 2s for CrossFit, when we're developing trainers, we have a teaching and a seeing drill, and the seeing is so based around critical action, where it's like, hey, tell me the faults that you're seeing. But what I think I'm gonna start with.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: from now on, I'm going to experiment at my next level, too. I'm going to start with, hey, tell me everything that you think is going well with this athlete. And by process of elimination, by deduction, if they don't say one of the points of performance, I'll know that, okay, well, now you tell me what's… you've told me what's going well. Now, because you didn't mention these things, I'm going to have to assume that you think they need correction here. So now let's go into that. That's actually super powerful.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Wow, guys, if you are a CrossFit coach, I've been doing this a long time, and maybe you've had this realization, but Dave, that's… that's phenomenal right there. That's great.
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Dave Kovar: Thank you, and you know, it's like, we stumbled across this, like, you know, years ago, that it's… someone watching can tell when someone has bad form. It doesn't take it. What's really important is someone learn how to see what people are doing well and comment on it, and then that makes the other stuff… yeah, yeah, so that's the idea with Praise Correct Praise.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: That's great. I'm gonna… so I'm gonna… after 20 years, I'm gonna start to flip this script. Guys, I just leveled up my coaching. That's great, dude. Thank you for that, Dave.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: So, core belief number 5, I think a lot of gym owners, they understand this, but they may not know how to systemize it, or how to get referrals without seeming salesy or pushy. So, core belief number 5, your best leads are already in your gym. Go.
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Dave Kovar: Yeah, well, you know, we know this. You know, if you ask anybody where your best source of new members comes from, it always comes from referrals. And then, I've asked that question a thousand times, and the follow-up question is, how good are your referrals? And almost everybody goes, well, I'm not very good. And it kind of has to do with what you said earlier, I don't want to bug people, but here's what I want you to think about. Okay, Zach.
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Dave Kovar: I get you, you haven't… you haven't, you've kind of, your health has kind of gone by the wayside. You know, you've got a career, you know, family, stress, all of a sudden you look down, you realize, man, I gotta lose some weight. This isn't… this isn't where I want to be. And I encourage you to join the gym where I'm at, okay? And I know you want to go, and I have to, you know, encourage you to do it. You finally show up.
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Dave Kovar: Five years later, what are you gonna say? Darn you, Dave, I'm so mad at you for getting me involved in that gym, I'm in the best shape I've ever been in, you know. No, you're gonna thank me. And so what we have to remember is that when we're asking for a referral, we're not selling some used car, some worthless trinkets. What we do has massive value, and the world needs it, right? And when you go from that standpoint, it makes those referrals easier, okay? Let them tell you
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Dave Kovar: no. And so one of the things that… here's my referral.
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Dave Kovar: Hey, hey, Zach, you know.
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Dave Kovar: I gotta tell you, I'd love to have other guys just like you in this gym. Do you have any friends that could benefit from the program? And by the way.
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Dave Kovar: You know, having an email that you send out, no problem. You know, text message, no problem, that's all fine. Do all that stuff. But let me tell you what, when you ask somebody one-on-one.
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Dave Kovar: and you have rapport with them, that's when you're going to get the best results, okay? I have a thread, a text thread with all of my senior instructors that, you know, you've got to get a word out. And if I go, hey, man, I need somebody to help me with class on… can someone come over to the Carmichael School this Friday, 8 a.m. to cover this class?
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Dave Kovar: I will get very little response. But if I reach out to them direct, individually, I get almost 100% response. And so the deal is, when you make an announcement in your group setting, hey, we're doing a special, you know, workout this Saturday.
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Dave Kovar: People are going, oh yeah, but when you walk up and you ask someone, hey, can you bring anybody to the special workout this Saturday? On a one-on-one basis, watch what happens. It's phenomenal how much better the results you're gonna get.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Yep, that makes total sense. Always ask for the referrals in a one-on-one setting, because you're going to get way better results. You can systemize a group-wide or an automated way of asking for referrals, but you should just have lower expectations of that, right?
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Dave Kovar: And you should and could, you should use every source possible to ask for referrals. But don't… don't neglect that when you're having a conversation with someone, a one-on-one conversation, never apologize for growing your business. You know what I'm saying? And like, you know, I don't want to ask you every time you show up, that's why it's nice to have a system. Like, after I've asked you for a referral, you know, I'm able to check your name off the box, so I don't ask you 10 times and I forget to ask somebody else.
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Dave Kovar: But yeah, never pass up that opportunity to ask someone for a referral.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: I like that. So, we were talking about this. We've had webinars specifically on this, about the first 90 days, when people sign up here, Jim, their experience for,
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Whether or not they stay long-term is usually made or broken within the first 90 days. So, when it comes to retention, what does a gym owner need to focus on, and what should their priorities be with new members in the first 90 days?
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Dave Kovar: I have 3 points that I think, if you can cover these 3 points, it's gonna make a big difference. So the first point, the first thing with gym owners is to get your new clients, get your clients in the habit of coming to class. So here's what's happening. Let's say I'm supposed to come to class Monday, Wednesday, Friday at 6… at 6 p.m. That's gonna be the class I'm gonna come to, okay? And I enroll, my intentions are good. You have to remember, understand that I'm already doing something Monday, Wednesday, Friday at 6 o'clock.
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Dave Kovar: And it may be just sitting on the couch doing… watching Netflix, but I've already got some other habit in place, and it takes quite a while to get that habit to coming into class, coming back. And so, a lot of the people, when they quit, everybody's had someone that quit before they made, you know, before their first month was out, and usually they didn't quit because they didn't like the program, they never made it a habit, okay? So imagine I'm supposed to be at the gym Monday, Wednesday, Friday at 6 o'clock, I show up Monday, I don't show up Wednesday.
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Dave Kovar: Wednesday at 6.05, my phone lights up.
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Dave Kovar: And there's a text saying, hey, man, missed you in class tonight, any chance you can make it up tomorrow? Right? And I know how hard that would be. I get it, okay? But with new members, man, standing appointments, and as soon as you can interact with them, help them get in the habit of it, okay? That's step number one. Step number two.
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Dave Kovar: is help them develop a love. For me, it's like, help them develop a love for martial arts. You know, I call it a white belt moment, or an aha moment, whatever it is. Help them develop a love for fitness, when they go, I love this stuff, right? And it's hard to say, this was gonna be your aha moment. You don't know what it's going to be exactly, but it's you pointing out, like, you know, someone's got that endorphin rush, and they just got done with a set, and they're breathing hard, and the endorphins are flowing.
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Dave Kovar: How you feel right now? Oh, great. Remember how you feel right now. You know, this is gonna get you back. Help them to develop that, like, man, I love this, right?
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Real quick, I want to tell you how I'm taking this point. I don't want to cut you off, but I do want people to understand, so I… whenever you're talking about this stuff, Dave, I'm… I'm selfishly taking all this stuff and saying, how am I implementing this in my business? And so, for the first 30 days, my new members are assigned to a coach that is responsible for their journey. And what you just said, help them develop a love
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: for training, or for martial arts, or for training. I'm gonna actually use that
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: as a talking point for the first reach-out moment, that the roster coach is responsible for. So now, in the first 2 weeks, I'm gonna make sure that every time we have a new member, they get asked that question specifically, hey, what do you love most about showing up at this gym? And I want that coach to ask that either in person, through conversation, or through a phone call.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: That is… and because now they're telling you why they like to be there.
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Dave Kovar: So why that's such a great question is because if I asked you, I'm gonna ask you a question, Zach. Who's your second favorite band? Your second favorite musical band?
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: I don't know, I, may… oh, of all time.
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Dave Kovar: Stuff doesn't matter. See how your brain has to process? You just start going through names.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Yeah.
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Dave Kovar: So, when you ask someone what you love about the program, they go, I love the fitness, yeah, but I, you know, I like the car. They go through the whole list of things, so they're.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Yeah!
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Dave Kovar: cells on it. Yes, 100%.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: That's phenomenal stuff, Dave. I'm gonna bake that into our processes, like, today. That's great. So what was point number three?
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Dave Kovar: Point number 3 is get them thinking long-term. You have to paint a picture of the future if they keep doing this. Okay. You know, you remember Charles Dickens, Christmas Carol, Scrooge, Christmas, Christmas, Past, Present, Future?
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Dave Kovar: Take them down memory lane. Here's where you were, here's where you are, here's where you're going if you keep it up. And it's gotta be something you talk about on a regular basis. And that could be, you see somebody that maybe is in really good shape that wasn't a year and a half ago, you can look at, see that guy over there?
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Dave Kovar: you know, he started, he was about where you are, look at him now, a year later, look where he's at, right? You know, give them a chance to kind of paint a picture of the future. So you get him in the habit of coming to class, help them develop a love for your program, and get them thinking long-term. And if you can do those 3 things, then you stand a really good chance of having that, you know, that 3% quit rate.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Alright, so I'm building… I'm legitimately taking notes right now, learning from you, Dave, and I'm gonna build these into our systems, and some semblance of these things were already built, but I'm gonna make it more explicit. We already know… we use Committed Club through PushPress, so we know that our first member, or excuse me, a brand new member, within their first 30 days, a bare minimum is 8 classes, but our goal is trying to get them into coming in
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: 12 times, committed to 12 classes, help them develop a love for training. So I'm gonna make sure that my trainers ask that specific question on the first reach-out outside of the gym, whether that's through the phone call conversation or the face-to-face after the class.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: and then paint a long-term picture. Now, I'm gonna have to give this some thought. We do… we're looking at, doing in-body scans so that we can say, hey, this is where we want you to… this is what we're gonna try to obtain within 3, 6, 12 months, but I… I'm not sure I'm too keen on it. I'm gonna give some more thought to that, but I love the concept, because if someone can see success in their future with you.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Not only are they more likely to stay, but they're more likely to actually obtain those results.
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Dave Kovar: Because they.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: can believe… if they can't visualize it, or if they don't believe in it, it's not gonna happen. So, we need to do a better job at painting the picture of success for.
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Dave Kovar: And I'll tell you, one of the key things that you can do to help that is past successes, if you can track more. Like, an easy way to do it would be, you know.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Testimonials.
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Dave Kovar: Yeah, yeah, well, and not only that, past success with the people that are in the program. Like, for example, imagine, you know, your first class, you only do 3 push-ups, and 3 weeks later, you're doing 12.
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Dave Kovar: You can use that as a point of reference as to what you could be doing in the future as well.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Absolutely. Yeah, that's perfect. I love that. So, alright, let's get, let's get actionable, and let's get tactical for our,
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: listeners and for the people that are watching this live. So, right off the bat, guys, I need you to calculate your quit rate. The calculation itself is going to take less than 5 to 10 minutes, and it will tell you exactly how urgent
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: this priority should be. I mean, if it's a priority, it's automatically going to be urgent. So, do the calculation today, if… to be honest, if you haven't already done so on this call. I'm imagining a few of you guys were already calculating this, as Dave and I were discussing it. I don't want you to try and implement everything at once, right? Because that usually never works. I want you to pick one… one of the five beliefs that's most
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: off, or most not correct in your gym right now, and start there. The systems…
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: need to line up with the intentions. So, the missed class text.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: the, what do we call it? The end of class commitment, where you ask, like, hey, are you coming back next time? When are you coming back? The personal referral request, right, Dave? Those things only work if… they're only going to work consistently if they're built into processes, and then your staff is trained on it. You can't just document it and assume that your staff is going to know and remember it. You need to, like, follow up with the training.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: That we have a tool in PushPress, the member intel, or the notes section in the staff app, is an excellent tool to get all of that stuff done. So if you're not leveraging that tool in PushPress Core.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: that's… that would be my recommendation to enact on all the stuff that Dave's been talking about. So, Dave, I want your… I want your insight. If someone's listening to this right now, and they can only do one thing before next week, or during next week, where do you think they should focus?
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Dave Kovar: Culture, right out of the gate, like, double down and make sure, is your culture, is it the friendliest place in town? That would be a great place to start.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Alright, so that's… there you have it. I mean, that… that sums it up very, very easily. I would love to switch into our Q&A, guys. If you have any questions, throw them in the chat, or put them in the Q&A. I do have one…
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Locked and loaded from K, ready to go. Kay Burrows, for that 5-point system on classes that I mentioned, is that scoring coming from your coaches.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: or your members? That's a great question, and Dave, I would actually, like to hear what you have as far as an eval system to make sure that your staff is running
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: great classes instead of good classes. I could actually pull up our eval sheet and share it with you guys. Should I do that? Let's see.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Where can… where is it?
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Dave Kovar: And Zach, I have… give me 30 seconds here, I'm gonna turn my camera off, I'm sure you've got plenty to talk about, I'll be right back.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: No, no, you're good. Go for it. I'm gonna pull up this PDF,
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: And I'm going to… I've never done this on a call before, guys, but this is what we use at…
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: work ethic, and this is also what I used at Max Effort. Now, this is an older version, it's been revamped, but you'll get the idea. It's a trainer eval, and so once a week, all, trainers have to eval other trainers. And here's the 1 through 5 rating. And you guys can screenshot this or whatever, I don't care if you steal it, right?
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: You put the trainer's name at the top, the evaluator, basically who's watching the class, time and day.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: how many people are in the class? All these things are checklist items, but then you have to give a rating 1 through 5. Now, all my trainers are taught what constitutes a 1 versus a 5, and it's not written on here, just for the sake of brevity. And then there are some sections to take notes.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Every single time they do this eval, they give this final piece of information down here.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: what was this coach's weak point in the class? What was their strength? So, every time you give this eval, I need to see, hey, what do you think the coach did really, really well? They should never change, and what do you think is the priority that this coach should focus on? And we total up the 1 through 5, and then we give an average number for that class. It's at the bottom. Now, that's not explicitly stated on this form.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: But that's because, I've trained my staff to do that. So, Kay, real quick, did you say how often your classes are being… so it's… every trainer is required to do this once a week.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: For another trainer.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: So, if you, let's say you have a staff of 5, you could potentially… the goal is
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: I need my trainers evaluating other trainers. It's not that I need a certain trainer evaled a certain amount of time. I want my trainers observing and evaluating other trainers, because that's how they best learn. I care less about the evaluatee, or the person that's being evaluated, and more…
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: About the per- the person doing the evaluation.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Because that's how I've… I've found my trainers learn best, is by watching someone, seeing what works, and be like, oh, you know what? That was really good, I'm gonna try that, versus, that did not pan out for Isaac, or that did not work, like, the way Ben wanted to do. I'm probably either gonna change it, or I'm gonna do something different.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: So, let's go back through the questions. Okay, hopefully that answered your question. So they're doing class as a participant. They're watching from the side, just so you know. Yep, and it's a good learning experience for the evaluator. Let's go…
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Lauren, can you go, Dave, this one's for you. Can you go over the 3x3 rule again for referrals? Are there any best practices on rewarding members for referrals? Okay, so a two-part question. Dave, can you go over the 3x3 again?
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Dave Kovar: Yeah, 3x3 wasn't necessarily gonna be used for referrals, but 3x3 was name, eye contact, appropriate body contact, 3 times every time they show up.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Okay, so that…
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Dave Kovar: It's like, you walk up, handshake somebody, look them in the eye, use their name, boom, that's one. And then you try to do that three times during the time that they're with you.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Okay, so they're trying to use your name 3 times in the class, they're trying to give eye contact 3 times, and they're trying to give appropriate body contact, like a fist bump, a high five, or something like that. Exactly. So it's actually… so, well, 3 by 3 means 9, so yeah, so I'm counting… oh, yeah, so that's 9 interactions, 9 strong interactions.
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Dave Kovar: Yeah, and you can do them simultaneously, right? Okay, cool. It usually happens at the same time. And by the way, that's an ideal. It's hard to do. It's hard to do.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Especially in big classes.
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Dave Kovar: Yeah, but when you try, guess what? You get to everybody at least once. And if you didn't try, you probably didn't. So that's the kind of… the mindset behind it.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Do you know any, or do you have any best practices for rewarding members for referrals?
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Dave Kovar: You know what? This is my perception, okay? You can agree, you know, I know that referral campaigns and rewarding campaigns, right now, what we do is we give, for a referral, we will give $100 off the second month's membership.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Okay.
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Dave Kovar: and for both the person who referred and the referee.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Oh, okay.
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Dave Kovar: Most people get it, okay? But honestly, I don't know that it makes a difference. I think the most important thing is a sincere act… ask.
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Dave Kovar: to a raving fan, most people don't really… you know, okay, I get a $50 gift certificate, I mean, it's fine, but if… when you break down… get down to it, the people that get the best results from referrals don't necessarily do some fancy referral campaign.
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Dave Kovar: As much as they just sincerely ask people for referral, and then they make sure to thank them in some way, shape, or form when they do it.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: I think that's the important part. People want to feel like their effort for your business was valued, so I think thanking them, making it a sincere ask, and then them realizing that it actually legitimately helped you by thanking them, I think that is the reward people are actually after.
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Dave Kovar: And that's something that we fail miserably at. We do… not fail, we could do a lot better job of that. We don't always acknowledge the referrals. And we should never have to have someone say, you know, I referred that person here. We should have walked up and said, hey, man, I want to… I know the Jones family just enrolled in our program, and they said you referred them, thank you so much. By the way.
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Dave Kovar: Here's a new uniform for you, for doing that. Oh, that's some kind of gesture. It's not really a… you know, it can be some financial incentive, but that's not why most people are going to do this.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Yeah, if you did something like that, though, that person's gonna try and refer as many people as possible. That's awesome. I love that. Samantha, we have great retention rate. People stay with us for about 10 years, or people with us for 10 years, which is phenomenal. Holy cow. We have a referral program, but we have a hard time converting leads to memberships from social media. Do you have any recommendations on converting social media leads?
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Dave Kovar: Yeah, so social media leads, we were just… the stats on this are, are, we, we probably convert twice as many refer… the percentage of people that come off referrals versus social media is at least twice as much.
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Dave Kovar: It's just… it's… they're not as good of a lead, right? They're not as good of a lead. What I would do is potentially some interim, maybe a shorter term, like.
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Dave Kovar: If you have a social media, someone that comes in on that, maybe it's not a full-term membership, maybe you need a little more time to get them to believe in the program. You know, maybe there's some inter… you know, shorter program, 2 weeks or 3 weeks, just to kind of get them a little more solidified before you ask for the long-term ask.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: that's exactly where my head went. So Samantha, for you, what I would suggest…
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: I want you to contrast the two sources of leads. If you have someone that's being referred, they're coming in, and they know someone at the gym, so they already have a tie to the gym. Oh, I know someone here. Whereas if someone's coming in cold off social media, and they don't have someone that's already at the gym that they know, that they have a relationship with.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: You need them to have a little bit more time at the gym to forge a relationship. So, with social media leads, what I would recommend is having a trial program exactly like Dave has suggested, like, one week at a minimum, because how many relationships are you gonna start to develop if you're only there for one or two classes?
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: okay, three, four classes, you've started to see the same people and build rapport with that coach over and over. Okay, five, six classes, it's like, hey, now, one, it's more of a habit, and two, you have rapport, so it's more likely that those people will convert. I would start with that, looking at what your trial offer is for people coming in off social media. Absolutely, Samantha, I hope, exactly. Should this be a free trial offer, or should it be a discounted
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: trial.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: I would experiment with both. I would start with a discounted paid trial. I've seen success with that. I've seen other gym owners be successful with that. Free trial offer, same exact thing. I would do, like, an A-B test or something along those lines. I would not necessarily say, hey, this is what we have to do. I would go into it with a month-long test, see how it works, then the next month, do something different.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: What is… Oh, Brendan, that's a relatively, broad ques… well, maybe not. Dave, what is your membership structure, monthly, quarterly, or annually? Maybe… maybe that has an impact on your ability to retain people.
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Dave Kovar: Yeah, you know, we're in the state of California, so you can't pay for services not rendered, so someone can quit anytime they want, right? However, we do enroll people on a year program, but they can get… we do a 90-day… we want a 90-day quit notice if they decide. Now, what… bottom line is, if someone cancels their credit card.
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Dave Kovar: there's nothing we can do, there's no recourse, right? But unless we explain that, hey, this is really a commitment on your part, because if you're only going to do this for a week or two, you know, there's not really no point. So, you know, you kind of got to be willing to commit to the year. I think that, in my opinion.
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Dave Kovar: It almost doesn't matter, you can do shorter term, as long as you set expectations of long-term training in the program.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: You're married.
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Dave Kovar: That's the key. That's the key.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: I've seen some gyms with super incredible retention rates, like, I'm talking 97-98%, and they just offer month-to-month. I've seen other gyms… I've seen gyms with terrible retention because people are canceling 12-month contracts left and right. I think it has less to do with the membership structure and more about exactly what you're talking about, painting the picture
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: of long-term success or long-term training. I think that's a phenomenal answer, Dave. With that, let's close it out. Dave, thank you so much for giving us your time and your insight and your perspective and your knowledge.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: from all of this, how can people… oh, wait, hold on one second. Dave, I'm sorry, I think we have a, another question.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Side question for member events. I remember you talking about this before, Dave. Zachary asked, we try to do member events, but our turn… turnout for member events…
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: I don't know, and getting new members is not good. We do fun ones, as well as free seminars. We may try combo events where it's a seminar with some fun, but had a question on getting new and old members to events to build community. Do these matter much, or are they a waste of time, or do we make these better and more impactful if they are important?
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Dave Kovar: That's… so there's a lot into that. Here's the deal. It's very cliche, but the old thing, I don't know one way to get 20 new members, but I know 20 ways to get one new member. If you have people showing up to your events, and you get no sign-ups from it.
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Dave Kovar: it's still a bonding event for your people. You know what I'm talking about? You never, you never friggin' know what you're gonna get, right? And so we find, right now is the season we find great success in outdoor events.
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Dave Kovar: You know, like the, you know, every… right now is the season. It's gonna get pretty hot in most parts of the country pretty soon, but maybe through mid-May, you've literally got another month of every weekend, there's some… there's some event, like the Chicken Fest, or the, you know, the Garlic Festival, or, you know, the, you know, all these parks that'll have, you know, events going on to have booths at those, we do great at those events, okay? As long as you have the motivated people. So that…
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Dave Kovar: But as far as doing them in your school, you're bringing them in, it's the level of enthusiasm with which you present when you're talking about the event's gonna determine the results. I see this in our schools when some of our guys don't really want to have, okay, we're doing a…
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Dave Kovar: You know, we're doing a buddy day this Friday, okay, you know, they push it, or somebody else, oh, we're doing a buddy day. It's, it's all, you know, so much of it is in the delivery of the person doing the events.
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Dave Kovar: Absolutely. Sometimes, hey, here's the other thing, man.
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Dave Kovar: You know, sometimes you can go fishing, and you fish all day, you didn't catch any fish, but if you didn't put a worm on the hook and throw it in the lake, you're never going to catch any. So, meaning, sometimes some events work better than others, but you just gotta keep, you know, fine-tuning and, you know, trying new things, and eventually you'll find your way.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: I, I agree with Dave on this, and Zachary, I would… I would…
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: say a few things. One, every time you run an event, as a team, agree on one thing that could have been better, and do that for the next event. Two, if your trainers or your staff are not excited for the event, you can expect your members to not be excited for the event. So, one, always be learning how to improve by doing an after-action report, or getting some sort of feedback. Like, hey, how do we make the next one even better? And then execute on that. And then two.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Make sure your staff is excited about the event. If they're not excited about the event, the event's probably not going to be good. So…
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Dave, thank you again. Let's wrap up. How can people find you if they, if they want to get ahold of you?
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Dave Kovar: So, my email address is dave.covar at covars.com. I'm on Facebook, Instagram, all those sources, or if you want some more information about what we do, you can reach out to… you can go to covarSystems.com, K-O-V-A-R-S-Y-S-T-E-M-S.
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Dave Kovar: And.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Phenomenal.
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Dave Kovar: What do we do?
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: Awesome, phenomenal. Hey, thank you again for joining us, and everybody that registered for this, and everybody that attended will get the recording sent out. You guys will get a link, and you'll also get an invite to our next webinar, where we're going to be talking about the efficacy of paid ads. Pros and cons, doing it on your own, doing it with an agency, and look for that in two weeks from today. Dave, thanks again.
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Zach Forrest, PushPress: It was great talking to you, as always.
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Dave Kovar: Pleasure, thank you.
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